Grant: 0:00

Welcome to The Waterbury Talks. I'm your host, Grant Copeland. Today's conversation is with Joe Gramando. Gramando is the managing partner of Green Hub Development, a commercial property development and management company. His neat appearance and cordial manner belie the scrappy Staten Island kid who grew up with a penchant for hard rock drumming. Born into a big Italian family who was all in the construction industry, Gramando has a soft spot for historic buildings and a resiliency to see complex projects through, like the major renovations he led of Waterbury's Brown building, and Howland-Hughes building. Now one of the city's biggest property developers lays out his plans for even more transformation downtown and explains why he's investing so heavily in Waterbury. From keeping the beat to investing in buildings, listen in, as The Waterbury Talks with Joe Gramando. Thank you very much for the time and your insight. So let's talk, you're a partner in Green Hub development, a commercial property developer. What does your role entail there?

Joe: 0:59

Well, what Green Hub? it's from researching out where we could find, good investments, all the way through the entire project, construction management of it. Then, operations afterwards running it.

Grant: 1:12

You also own a construction management company for residential and commercial?

Joe: 1:16

Right. It's K Bar Development, LLC. And that is separate from my business partner, Lou Forster.

Grant: 1:23

So tell me about some of the properties that you've developed in Waterbury?

Joe: 1:27

So in Waterbury, the first building would be the Brown building, which is just doing a living building. I was the first building. We came up, into, into the city. I came up here, to, actually, an architect that I do business with in Westchester, twisted my arm and said, "do me a favor, do me a favor, do me a favor." I was like fine. So we took a ride up to Waterbury because a client of his was thinking about buying a building. So I said, sure, I'll take a ride. He, he told me he would get me a hotdog at, Frankie's so it's like I'm in. So we drove up here and I looked at the building and I wanted meeting Joe McGraw and in meeting him, I said, you know, we had a great conversation. And, he said, you should come up, look around a little more. I came up on my own and I started to learn a little more about the city and what really drew me in, Was the amount of people who are in the city, work in the city who really care about it. And I started to say, wow, this is a place that, you know, people really want to see development. they grew up here, there's history, and, and it pulled me in and I am a total sucker for old buildings. Love old buildings. I love renovating old buildings. I started my career with New York city housing authority. where I worked for them renovating old buildings, so I'm really into history. So that sucked me right in. and that's how we started looking around here.

Grant: 2:45

So what was attractive specifically about the Brown building?

Joe: 2:48

Well, what we did was, after we had met with the mayor and, my business partner, I said, you know, this is definitely what we want. We, we want to invest some money. We, we started reading some of the original, city plans on redevelopment. And so we said, we don't want to get a building. Not within the city's plan. So, the immediate downtown was what they were looking at. And, we were like, what can we do? How can we get more people on the street? How can we make a difference? What should we be trying to invest in? And just so happened that the Brown building came up for sale. there was a developer who is going to do low income apartments in it, fell through. And we were like, okay, it's right across the street. From a Waterbury, UCONN. So, why not have student housing? A lot of students are coming, driving from New Haven every day. They just come in and they go to classrooms all the way back home again. So that made us interested in this building. Cause the Brown building, it's actually laid out perfectly for it. the way it is. So, and I went inside of it and said it was like walking in a time walk, you know? So I was like, this is a good project. And then we spent a lot of time with, a bunch of stores looking at their campus. How do they, run their, housing? What does it look like? And then we said, this will be the building. So we made a bid on the building. And, that's how we started with, we originally had three buildings right off the bat that we thought were, what we would want to buy. So we thought this would be actually my first, if you want to talk about would be, we wanted to buy Howland-Hughes, but we could not get the deal we wanted. Not to purchase it, but somebody to come in it cause it's really important in development that we're going to have an end user. so we want to try to have that end user, as we're closing, you don't want to buy something to be stuck with it.

Grant: 4:36

But you do end up getting involved in the Howland-Hughes building. How do you go from the Brown Building success to Howland-Hughes?

Joe: 4:42

Well, me personally would not let go of it. my business partner was like, ah, you never gonna make that deal happen. but, I saw, when I met, John Hopkins, I knew we could get a deal. I mean, he's a visionary person. it was a different person to deal with and we started talking about it and I said, we can make that deal happen. It was a lot of moving parts. cause we're trying to get some funding from the state. Every party had to be happy. So it was a lot of work on everybody's part on the mayor's part on John Hopkins part, my part, to make it happen, but it happened. And that was an enormous thing. So we knew like Brown Building. We could house, 96 students. that's putting people on the street, it changes up a little bit, and we feel that's going to grow, that business is going to just keep growing as UCONN, puts more, allied health, is coming. So as low students count, there'll be more room for that. but our next thing was immediately to get workers downtown and the deal with Post was just a home run.

Grant: 5:41

Who was the building owner, previously of the Brown building?

Joe: 5:44

The Brown building is John Lombard. he had the building, and what we did was we did kind of an interesting deal where he kept some of the first floor. It was kind of condo setup. so he's still owns a couple of storefronts.

Grant: 5:58

And how is that working relationship with John Lombard?

Joe: 6:00

It's really good. He's a great guy. We have good relationship. and I'm not a fan of condo deals, but, with this, we both work together to make it where the originally no common areas, right. He owns a piece of the building. I don't know. We really worked out a really good deal to make it work.

Grant: 6:17

What are some of the twists and turns on such a massive project? Like Howland-Hughes you've got state involvement. You've got the city involvement, you've got Post University and you've got Green Hub that's a lot of moving parts to try to figure out. I imagine it went through ebbs and flows, walk us through because very few of us have been involved in such a big project. Walk us through the considerations or the topics and the discussions that lead up to actually getting a quote unquote deal done.

Joe: 6:43

Sure. So post doesn't want to make a, you, you know, their own financial investment in the deal that they have to get a cheaper lease than they had prior. So they needed to be at a certain dollar amount. and they had to make sure that they were going to have a safe environment. They're going to have parking. So they had all of their things, Green Hub, if we're investing too much money into the building, We can't give them the lease at the dollar amount they want. So that is a huge problem. so we've got to try to get, some funding to help us with that deal. We also have to get concessions with the city on the parking. so it was just a lot of moving and the, the deal must have been up and down so many times. I remember I was, it was over Christmas. I was in the Dominican Republic with my family and I'm still taking phone calls and my business partners, like that deal is dead. And my wife's like, Oh, I can't believe you're still working on that. It's Christmas, which I didn't have family time. And I was like, it's going to happen. And John Hopkins believed the same thing. We were going to make the deal work. He wanted to make it work, but it had, I had to work for their business and I work for our business. You don't know how to work for the city. And we had to get people on a state level to really see that this is going to make a difference. You're not putting taxpayers money into this, for nothing. and that a private, government partnership, this really works. And it's really what has to happen. I can't come into the city and buy a building, and put, $15 million in it and get $10 a square foot. It just, no one's going to do it. So, it, it really was a long road, but we, we got there, and the mayor worked really hard on it, but that, that was like a pivotal point that Christmas I was sitting there and I was like, no, it's going to work more. She's like, "Oh, stop already with that building." She's like, but I fell in love with that building. The day I walked in and Joe McGrath walked me through it. and I met Hank Payne and, we walked through it and Hank, a great guy. he wasn't selling a building to just anybody. It was really dear to him. And when he gave me the history of it, and I think the turning point for him to sell it to me was, I went through it so many times and I was walking other people, contractors through it, trying to get numbers. And, and I was walking. I think it was John Hopkins through it. And I gave the tour and I gave the tour just like Hank Payne would have gave the tour. About every department where it was, what happened in 1930, and the safe and all stuff. And after that, he came over and he goes, "Do you know what?" He goes, "the building just told me you're the right guy." So then when we made a deal, so it was really very, very cool. And I promised him I would keep the history of the building. and John felt the same way.

Grant: 9:24

Is there a particular interest in working with colleges and universities?

Joe: 9:28

Yes. In this downtown. Green Hub's vision, is that it becomes a university zone. I think that will totally change the entire city. If we see it in little pieces, we see you're having the students, being down here, we see having the employees from post down here and just how Post operates in general, is fun. Their employers are happy. they go out for lunch. They don't just sit in their building. they want to be part of the downtown. The more that opens up down here and the more those employees would hang out down here. They asked for apartments, there's not enough apartments downtown. So I really believe a university zone is the way to go. we at Green Hub developed a plan for the downtown. Which showing buildings that could be used for university use, for, for more housing and for more residential housing. Cause all of that will tie into more people. We get to work down here. The more residential housing needed. I think both, hospitals I've met with and said, we have all these employees, the age that they are, they want to live downtown. They don't want to commute far. and we need to develop that as well.

Grant: 10:37

It sounds a bit like what many cities have done to grow. They call it an "Eds and Meds" strategy, where you've got saturated healthcare and you've got saturated educational institutions.

Joe: 10:47

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Grant: 10:50

You mentioned it a little bit about taking a ride. walk us, if you can, through the thought process of that time after a ride, after meeting with Joe McGrath, you have a little glimmer in your eye, let's say about the city of Waterbury, but how did you really become engaged with the city?

Joe: 11:05

Well, the more and more time I spent with Joe, he's a great guy, but I think that the moment we made the decision was the moment we had lunch with the mayor. And meeting, I have the utmost respect for him. I mean, he's a guy who grew up in Waterbury, was a police officer, a police chief. he's a leader, but his, how much he cares about this city and really wants to see it thrive. really spoke to us that this is the right place. I mean, we feel like we're going to make an investment here and make a difference. And he's, he's somebody that wants to work with you, right? And he wants the whole city to work. he had said to not take it a little bit off track, but when he had said to the building department and zoning and he's like, we are open for business. So like a lot of places we go and do business. The billing department is a nightmare to work with it is just one hoop after another. And seeing that, he said that, we are open for business giving away permits here, but we got to make these things happen. If I'm seeing that and say, well, we could actually, get a building permit and a good amount of time here. we could do something good and we wanted to be part of it. He, after that lunch and then he made us feel, the mayor made us feel like, we want to be part of this. This city is going to turn around. and we want to be part of that. We want to be in on that and, and feel good about the investment we made. He, it was that moment. We got in the car from the restaurant and my business partner said, we're doing business here. He's like, let's focus on Waterbury right now. And that was really the moment.

Grant: 12:40

During the pandemic, you offered part of the Brown Building to medical staff at nearby Saint Mary's Hospital, as well as city police, firefighters, and ambulance crews. Why is giving back to the Waterbury community in ways like this important to you?

Joe: 12:53

Well, I really, I admire, like I said before, people grew up here and continue to work here. I've been to so many fundraisers and I see how hard they work to help the community. I start to feel like. I do feel a part of the community here. The two investments we made, I spend a lot of my time in Waterbury. I eat at all these restaurants. I got tickets at the Palace. I feel part of the community. They make me feel part of the community. I have lunch with the Portuguese club the other day. I mean, I really do like being here. So it's important to me to give back to the community in Waterbury. Cause I think they're all working hard. everyone that I meet is really trying to make a difference. And my middle son is a, an EMT. So I really have a spot for, emergency service people.

Grant: 13:38

You're an active participant in the Waterbury community, but you're not from here. Where did you grow up?

Joe: 13:42

I grew up, I was born in Staten Island, New York, and I lived there. I grew up in the, West Brighton projects, in the late sixties, early seventies. and we lived on Staten Island. We actually moved out of the projects when I was about 13. we were lucky enough that my grandfather passed away and left us money and we were able to sell, but he was a postal worker. everyone else in the family was in construction. So at an age of like nine, I was on the construction site, you know, very Italian family, you worked. so I was all construction was my thing. right out of high school. I went into the company's union it when I was going to college at night, but I worked in the union. So yeah, I grew up there. I lived in Manhattan for a long time. and I got to Westchester in a strange way because I started to buy houses in Rockland County just to flip them. And, I started living in Rockland and then I went over into Westchester and that's how I met my wife in Westchester. I got stuck at Westchester cause she wouldn't leave. We talk a lot about moving to Connecticut, which is waiting for my last child to get out of public school in Westchester. And then, what we'll probably can move into Connecticut.

Grant: 14:50

So let's dive in a little bit. If you can, into your childhood, this is 60, 70 Staten Island. This is a track disco, stickball mall, blackouts, banana seat, bicycle, Staten Island, right?

Joe: 15:01

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was interesting. Yeah. Yeah. little bit of Staten Island. Well, you know, family was enormous for me. growing up, it was every Saturday and Sunday you would family. we would all be together and, and cooking and eating was the main thing on Saturdays. I have, pizza pans that my grandmother brought over from Sicily. So, and it's been like the big thing of the family, you know? So when my dad had him and then when she had passed away every Saturday at my house, my dad would make pizza all day and, cousins would be coming in and now people stop in. They eat a little, they leave that we'd make . That was like every Saturday. Wide world of sports? That was Saturday. So that was Saturday growing up and stuff. Now on Sunday was church and visiting, grave sites. yeah. Yeah. So what were some of your interests? Was it pizza and construction? Yeah. but I was very big into my brother was a big athlete. So, everybody in my family, pretty much was, six foot tall. except me so, but my brother was a big athlete. He was like the number one, athlete you always in the newspaper, but I did not have that, that as much athletic ability as him. So I was really into music and I started playing the drums at probably like 11. And, I was in my first band, probably a 13. I started playing bars when I was 16. Really didn't really, the drinking age back then was 18, but I started playing bars when I was probably 16, all through Staten Island, Brooklyn. well then I did move out to California. So which my parents thought I was insane, I was working construction doing well. and I, I left to go to music school. So I went out to California and went to a music institute in LA, which was great. I had a great time, but I did, very quickly you learn, in my little world of Staten Island, Brooklyn and Long Island, I was really, I was very good drummer, right? When you get there and you say, to be accepted as good. Right. So I gotta say, but there were 150 drummers, and, I was ranking, in the, 145, there's so many good musicians out there. I had a great time. It was a lot of fun. but I didn't think I was going to make a lot of money. I was studying to be a, a musician that's in the orchestra pit on, like on Broadway. So that's what I was looking to do. So a lot of, you know, reading and writing music is what I did while I was there. And I loved it and a great time, but I said, if I want to make money, I really need to go back to New York and I need to, go back to what I, what I could do, but I never stopped playing. I still play. Now. I play in two bands, I play out. I still record with people.

Grant: 17:36

So you start the process of your professional career as a supervisor in New York city?

Joe: 17:42

Well, I started as a, actually a mechanic. I maintenance mechanic, a newer city housing. When I came back from LA, I took that job because at that time, construction was kind of slow. So the union was slow. So I took a job down in the Lower East Side and what the, housing preservation development does is they take buildings that, owners have, defaulted on and having, paid, walked away from and they'll renovate them. So, and then they'll put in, maybe homeless or low income. So I started there and within six months I worked myself up to the supervisor. and then, I became director of the Lower East Side area. So that was really exciting work, to work there. Cause we, we did take a lot of buildings. And gut renovated them and really got to see people, get to move into them that really needed housing. So two things there, I felt I really liked working with old buildings, which is exciting, but I really saw that it's really nice to help people. And, growing up, when I grew up in the projects, I saw a lot of poverty, right? We were poor. And to be able to help others, I saw that to be something that I really enjoyed. So, from there I said, what else can I do in, with development.

Grant: 18:53

In the 1990s, you become the director of facilities for Kaiser Permanente in the Northeast region. What's the role there?

Joe: 19:00

Yeah, that was interesting. So I got this good job working for the city. Now, my father, Very Italian. And, if you get a job with the city or the state you're golden, right? So he's like, what are you doing? You're leaving New York city. You have this great job there. what a future to go work for? What is his Kaiser's at a steel company? Like he had no clue where the largest HMO is in the United States. I took that job cause I was flipping houses in Rocklin. And that's how I got to Westchester. Cause what I did was I saw a job opening and I went interviewed for it and it was running, four of their, medical facilities, their Director of Facilities from Nelson. I said, well, this is really interesting. And they were just going to build a huge building. So they sucked me in on the construction project cause I had the construction background. So that was really exciting, to take that job and that's how I wound meeting my wife. So, that, that's how I want to go. I thought Kaiser was great. I learned a ton of time management, from them and, a lot about the healthcare industry.

Grant: 19:58

You then become the director of facilities for the Carmel New York school district. Walk me through the thought process there.

Joe: 20:05

I got a phone call from someone who said, "Hey, we could really use, we have all this construction we want to do. We could use a director of facilities, you come check it out." So I looked at it and I was like, yeah, this will be good. You know? meanwhile, while I'm doing all of that, I was still running my, my other construction businesses at the same time, we were still doing development. And, but this was really exciting. So I went to work for the school district cause I was able to pick back up my New York city pension. So I'm sitting two years away from getting a full state pension. And so, that was important to my father at the time, but yeah, it I thought it'd be something exciting to work with schools, and do construction on school. So I got to learn a lot about school districts.

Grant: 20:48

So in that period, that early part of your career, what would you say were some of your biggest accomplishments?

Joe: 20:53

Working for the housing Was the best, because I really got to see people, you go back to a building, months later and how appreciative they are that they got this apartment. That would be I feel one of my biggest accomplishments. with Kaiser I love construction cause like to see the outcome at the end, like to be able to sit back and say, this is what it looked like before we got there. This is what it looks like. It's exciting. Right. I like that whole end of it. So I did a lot with Kaiser that, that way and the same with the school district, and I think with the school districts, being able to put them on a track of five-year plans. For their maintenance, because a lot of schools will just sit back and do nothing until it's, the roof's ready to collapse or, they don't take and say, we need to spend X amount of money per year to maintain and, and keep up on their capital repairs. So that was a big accomplishment at, Carmel and Chapel Cost school district. being able to put them on track. which is it saves the taxpayer money. Cause it's, it's four times cheaper to renovate, on a five year plan than a full capital construction, with school districts by in New York. Cause there's so many layers of bureaucracy. if I had to say another thing would be, up here. I think I have helped people that I work with and people that are working for me now, I think I was being able to make a change in some people's lives, which I feel pretty good about.

Grant: 22:23

When and why did you and your brother in law, Lou Forster go into business?

Joe: 22:27

he was in Japan, and I was doing my side business and, I was flipping houses and he wanted to get in on. cause at the time, it was a huge thing. flipping houses in Westchester, the money that you can make. So he wanted to get an a on it. So, we were talking about, and he says, let's do some projects together. So then we started to buy some houses together. And I could do it on a bigger scale, because there was a lot more, funds there. So we were ripping them down pretty much to the ground and rebuilding them brand new. which was a lot of fun.

Grant: 22:57

I noticed in past photos that it looks like you're a lefty. Does that make you more creative than the other developers out there?

Joe: 23:04

I think so. I think so. Are you a lefty too? So we are creative people. I think so. and that's why I think, my musical background, which is totally different for a drum because I set my drum set up totally opposite. Ringo, Starr was lefty, but he played righty, but so he would do his feels backwards a lot of times, but yeah, so I play lefty. So my set is a. One of my many sets. I have a full music studio set up, in my house and I have right now, four drum sets set up there and that's where both my bands practice and we recorded there. But, yeah, I do think I'm more creative cause I'm lefty. People might argue that, but.

Grant: 23:41

Do you live your life or do business along a personal or a particular philosophy?

Joe: 23:46

I do I believe, to do good by others, to help people to laugh, and try to enjoy life. when I said to my wife, one time we have three kids and I said, what are we really doing as parents? Right? Kids don't come with a, a book to help you. What is my goal? My goal is to raise three good citizens in society, and it doesn't matter what they do. It's not just to go to Harvard and be a lawyer, which none of my kids are doing, but, to be a good citizen and I wanted to be a good citizen. My life, that's what I was taught from my father. Be good to others. Be good to everyone. and try to make a difference. In a little way. And that's what I try to do with everything. I do try to make a difference and being in Waterbury, I'm trying to make a difference here.

Grant: 24:27

Talk about some of the most influential people in your life.

Joe: 24:30

My father, influential, cause he worked hard his whole life. his father went off to World War II when he had to cut his school very short to work and make money to help the family. he worked very hard for us he was a postal worker. Plus you work construction on the side and, I never grew up wanting, I was never wanting anything because he sacrificed for us to have stuff. and he really drilled into my, it was just me and my brother. He drilled into us how important family is. and I think that was one of the most thing, best thing he ever taught me and, and how important that is. And he definitely is more the most influential person.

Grant: 25:11

How about your uncle Joe?

Joe: 25:12

yes, but he's lefty and, I worked for him. He was a fireman, UFC Fireman, but he had a construction company. So he was the person that started working for at nine. And he was great at, lecturing, which his daughters didn't like, but he always had good stuff to tell. And he worked hard and he actually did very well. So where we lived in a modest house, he lived in a very big house and, he always had the Mercedes and, so he was somebody I looked at like, wow, if I work hard, I could have these things. but he was definitely a big influence in my life.

Grant: 25:46

I've also heard Abraham Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt.

Joe: 25:50

Yes. So I'm a huge history person, huge history person. and when you look through history, there's a lot of people we could look at as I could go on and on talk about your General Grant or, there was just a great documentary about Grant that came out on the history channel. but Abraham Lincoln being a man of honor, you really have a lot of respect for him.

Grant: 26:11

You met your wife at Kaiser?

Joe: 26:13

What happened was, she worked there, but she had went on to another HMO, but her best friend worked there. And, I saw a picture of her, on her, she was in a newspaper. She was a, a director for that other HMO. And she was in the paper and it was on her desk. And I said, "Oh, who's that?" She goes, "well, that's my friend, Barbara and go, "Oh, set me up." She goes, "no," she goes "way too nice. I'm not setting her up with you." So, I probably bugged her for about two months and she's like, "all right, listen, my husband says I shouldn't do this. I should mind my own business but, I do think you guys would be good together, but one time we'll meet at a bar and it's up to you from there." So we had met and, about halfway through, I was like, "Oh, she doesn't like me." So I'm just of. Say anything I don't care anymore. Right. So, but we had it, we had a good time and afterwards, back then, I had like a beeper, right. So I was getting beeped from Kaiser and I go, I gotta make a phone call. She was all, I have one of my car and I was like, wow, she's somewhere. Like I have a beeper. She has a, you know, it was one of those like huge things, why are on it there? and then I asked her out and we started going out and, and that was it. Yeah. So that's how I met her through that. Her mother actually I'd worked at Kaiser also.

Grant: 27:20

So you seem to be a bit of a romantic, I think one of your favorite movies is Gone with the Wind

Joe: 27:24

yes. I just watched it again. The other night, two levels. I do like romantic movies, but there's a lot of history in that movie too, which I really enjoy watching that, but I just, I just watched it the other night

Grant: 27:36

And then I think you're on the other end of the spectrum. One of your favorite movies is Band of Brothers?

Joe: 27:40

Again, history. So yeah, everything to me ties back to history, right? And now those are real life stories, you know?

Grant: 27:46

So you're in New York guy, which means you're a sports guy. So I'm going to give you some choices here Mets or Yankees?

Joe: 27:52

My entire family, Yankee fans I was a Met fan. I had to just be, I had to be different.

Grant: 27:57

Defiance. Lefties are defiant, as well as creative.

Joe: 28:00

Right! It made my father insane. He was the biggest Yankee fan. He grew up in the city and he grew up, rooting for the Yankees, his whole life and I went to become a Met fan.

Grant: 28:10

Giants or Jets?

Joe: 28:11

Unfortunately the same thing. Actually my mother and my mother's side of the family, her, her father. They go way back. Leather helmets played for the Giants. So, huge Giant family boat that, and my father, and I've always a Jet fan.

Grant: 28:27

Rangers or Islanders?

Joe: 28:28

Ranger fan. Totally all the way Ranger fan.

Grant: 28:31

But now wait a second. I've also heard Devils fan. Yes. How's that possible?

Joe: 28:36

my oldest son is huge hockey player. He played, hockey in Canada or after he went to boarding school in Connecticut, played hockey. So uh uh huge hockey started playing hockey. I had him on the ice when he was like, four years old. he swayed we were big Ranger fans. I'm actually friends with Mike Rector. So, huge Ranger fans and he switched over to the devils and I don't know why, but he did. So I had no choice, but to take him there, take him there and we'd go into so many games. I actually, I will root for the, for the Devils a lot. I know every player. it's just tough when they play the Rangers. It's hard to, and the funny thing is I had, Mike Richter over, and he comes into my office and I went to a Devils game with my son where it's a painting party before it. So I painted this huge logo, that evening. And it's sitting there cause I painted it and it's really good, but they help you the whole way, but, it's really nice. So I have, he goes." What are you kidding me, Joe?" He's like, I see that he goes,"I get chills just seeing that." Cause that was like the biggest rival for him. And I had to give him the whole story and he knows my son too. And he was like, so the, he always ribs him. He'll text my son and say, "how's your Devil's doing now," you know? But, yeah, so, so I do root for the Devil's a lot.

Grant: 29:50

All right, let's keep going. But we'll switch over to music. Bob Dylan or Johnny Cash?

Joe: 29:55

Johnny Cash. Which is hard to say. Cause you know, they did play together a little bit.

Grant: 29:59

Allman Brothers or Grateful Dead?

Joe: 30:01

Allman Brothers, just cause there's more musicians.

Grant: 30:03

CCR or Crosby Stills Nash?

Joe: 30:06

Oh, that's, that's a pretty good, that's a pretty tie there.

Grant: 30:09

Led Zeppelin or Lynyrd Skynyrd?

Joe: 30:10

Ah, that was a tough one you put together. I would have to go with - only, only because I'm a big John Bonham fan - I would say Led Zeppelin.

Grant: 30:18

Heavy metal or hairbands?

Joe: 30:20

that's a tough one too. Cause all my friends, it's all heavy mental, heavy metal. when I moved out to LA the bass player that a good friend of mine from when I was kid, he's in the middle band that tours Europe now. And, I was way more of a hair band guy. Unfortunately to say that because I liked that scene. I had long, long hair. I had it, body wave. So it was like wavy and I had to have it. Perfect. I would go to see Metallica and, Iron Maiden and all that. and even thrash bands. I was still always like the music. I always wanted my hair to look good.

Grant: 30:53

What is it about playing music? That's so invigorating for you?

Joe: 30:56

For me, it's a way for me to get away from everything that's happening in my life. At that moment, all the work stuff, the family or the kids. It's something that it's on me to play and I love music, but I love to play it and I liked that whole just getting into the zone and, I pretty much play every day. And, before I was playing twice a week with two bands. We'd play out. I love playing out in, in a club and seeing people enjoying the music and the though I'm in a grass roots band, which is really interesting. Cause we go from, Hank Williams, Johnny Cash type stuff, all the way into, classic rock. So it is really a huge realm of music. And as though it's, it's fun, it's really fun to play.

Grant: 31:41

Do you apply any concepts of music, keeping the beat, collaborating with band mates and applying that to your businesses?

Joe: 31:48

Collaborating. Absolutely. Especially when you have musicians, cause everyone is an artist and have their own view. If you ever watched breaking the band you'll see, that's why bands break up. Right. And even on the little level of the people I'm playing with. most of them have been in some serious bands at one point, I play with a guy to play with Rick Derringer, you could see like everybody has their own creative, so how do we work together to make this actually happen? You know? yes. I definitely take that in negotiating into, the business.

Grant: 32:20

What are your favorite things to do in the Waterbury area?

Joe: 32:23

I love the Palace Theater. I love going there. it's a beautiful place. They put on great shows there. I liked that upstairs room they have with the small bar and they have some jazz bands there and stuff. That's probably one of my favorite things to do. I probably should say eating because I love to go out to eat. So I love to go to the restaurants. So I'm pretty much, I'm always in one of the restaurants or all the bars. And I like, cause you run into people. So if I'm at, signatures, at five thirty, somebody coming in, and I got conversation with somebody, so I do like socializing in Waterbury.

Grant: 33:02

Things to do. Places to eat. People coming back to downtown. What do you see happening in the Waterbury region overall? Is it making strides?

Joe: 33:10

Yes, I think it's has come a long way. since the first time I came up here, I think the city has come a long way and that's a huge. A credit to the mayor. I mean, I think he, he works tirelessly on this, trying to, change things and make things better things that people don't even say, people he puts in place. I think it's come a long way. I mean, just the green, the green is beautiful. And I see people enjoying it right now. I just turned to look and I see people sitting out there talking, I think he's done a great job and I think it's little pieces, the Brown building and Holland Hues and all the little businesses pop up. and I think some of the smaller businesses are making some more money. And to see these people start to make a little, make their businesses making more money. it's how do we sell it to more people to come down here and open up? How do we get people to come down here and not see the old Waterbury? you know, 20 years ago articles, right? How do we see this Waterbury? that's what we need to do. How do I go out and sell it? And I think that's what the next step for this city is really selling itself to where we are now, which is in a good place.

Grant: 34:16

Given your experience in both residential and commercial, what's your take on how attractive the real estate is here in the Waterbury region?

Joe: 34:23

It's very attractive. It's very attractive because the city is willing to work with developers, which, like I said earlier as an enormous, you could go into the billing department. They're friendly. They give you the advice on how things are goes. Zoning will meet with you. It's very friendly. city to work with and for a developer that's enormous, you want a city that's going to want you to, to be there, not fight you on your development.

Grant: 34:51

You're connected to developers and architects around the country. So what's the chatter from those folks related to the commercial properties in Waterbury?

Joe: 34:59

You know, they're watching what I'm doing. And like, Oh, you making a profit? You know? So, they're watching me, I need to, and, in the city needs to have ways to get them more motivated. They're like, yeah, I know. Like, they'll go online and see something about brownfield. That's an article from, 20 years ago. They got to see what's happening now. So we've got to promote that, but they're watching and I think we will get more developers. Up here. There's definitely interest in, residential, apartments. Right? So there's guys that want to do stuff up here. So, if I was to sit down with legislators in Hartford, I'd say, how do we partner to make these things happen to entice these guys to come in? I think I'm one to two buildings away from getting a lot of other developers down here.

Grant: 35:47

You mentioned looking out onto the city, the green here, but just generally speaking, when you look out on the city of Waterbury, what do you see?

Joe: 35:56

I see a city of people who, who care, who work here, who live here seem to be, happy here. It's a city right there. There's there's issues. There's always gonna to be some issues. I see a lot of good people of all dynamics and people that I employ here, people that I meet in the bar, people that I just talked to on the street, I see good people.

Grant: 36:20

So you mentioned the next step is to really promote the city and the great things that are happening here. So you get to deliver the pitch. What would you say to other investors, property developers, or even just business owners, looking at the Waterbury region, what's the succinct pitch?

Joe: 36:36

One I'll steal from the mayor, we're open for business, that makes a big statement to a developer. We're all open for business. That means we are going to work partners with developers to develop the downtown. the city is a place that is ready. It's ready. That the city has good transportation. You say, why does Baltimore not do well? It's right next to Washington. Yeah. Terrible transportation. You can't live and get into Washington easily. I think that's a big downfall for them. I say here in Waterbury, I come here, the train line, the buses you can get around, very easily. You can get places, you can get to Hartford. so I think transportation is a big thing. I think the willingness of the city that they want to develop, there is, people that want to work here. It's right at the edge. I think if we could just turn one or two more big things over here, the whole city is going to turn over.

Grant: 37:30

This is great. Thank you so much for the time.

Joe: 37:32

Thank you.

Grant: 37:33

Listen to the full series from The Waterbury Talks, and learn more about available commercial properties, investment programs and incentives, and all the city offers, at thewaterbury.com