So let's talk about a variety of things. We're going to go off all over the map, but I figure a good place to start, John, is You've said fairly recently that higher education is broken and Post is a disruptor out to fix it. What's the grandios vision? How broken is it? And what's this re-imagined future that you've been mentioning? Yeah, boy, that's, there's a lot to that. I'm not sure broken is the right word. Although I have used that. Um, but it is, it has to change it. It has to change. And I don't think right now that the change that I'm seeing is, is going to be doing the next generations any justice. So what I mean by that is today you can't pick up a newspaper without reading about the next private college closing. There's something fundamentally wrong, right? And then on the student side, you look at the amount of debt that students are taking on and you know, that is not necessarily just the higher ed institutions problem. Or causing that. Now, if you hold that thought and you consider a couple other things that if you talk to demographers today, there is, they would tell you that there is a probability that somebody living today, albeit a very young somebody, could live to 150 years old. Now, whether you believe that or not, doesn't matter. But clearly there's a trend in that direction. Let's say it's 120 years. Take that thought and you layer it with the workforce today is not going to be working for GE for 40 years. Many of them like the idea of self employment, the gig economy as they refer to it. Uh, but they also like to change things up. No, I may have changed six times in my career, I think is the average right now they'll probably change 12 to 18 times and it's over a longer period of time. So what that means is that they have to stay relevant because they're constantly changing. The pace of change in the marketplace is so rapid with technology today and it's over a longer period of time. So there's a possibility out there that the traditional model, I mean, I would assert the traditional model today is obsolete. Right? So given that dynamic that's at play young people in particular are really taking a hard look at that traditional model. The debt piece that I just talked about, that's weighing on their mind, um, the flexibility in their schedule, you don't get in a traditional model. And so traditional students that 18 to 23 year old are now really taking a look at online as a legitimate option after high school. It has traditionally been a model for working adults and still remains the overwhelming majority of online students because of the flexibility. But young people are now getting out of high school, want to go right into the workforce so that they're earning an income and don't necessarily have to burden themselves with that debt that often lasts a lifetime. So, we've seen in the last few years, a rather precipitous drop in the average age. So three years ago, the average age of our student was 37 years old. Today's 30, 31 years old, and that's going to continue to drop as more and more young people start to think about this as an option. That really serves a lot of purposes, gets them into the workforce, avoids debt, and they still have a, they still pursue their, their, um, their field of study. So, you know, at the end of the day, I think higher ed is up for some pretty significant change. I always say the way that most institutions teach hasn't changed since Jesus was a kid. And it hasn't. You have this imperious relationship with this instructor who's lecturing the students, his or her students. That has to change. That's not how people learn today. Again, their brains work differently than mine. It's just how they've been raised. So there's gotta be a lot more interaction, a lot more technology, the entire model, the delivery model, is is all up for, up for debate. And it has to be. from a personal standpoint. Why don't you tell me about your upbringing? Where did you grow up? I grew up mostly in Southern New Hampshire on the sea coast of southern New Hampshire, um, in Salem and then Seabrook and in Rye, New Hampshire. My grandfather built a lot of the homes on the Seacoast. And every year without fail, he would save a home that he built for his grandchildren. So as soon as school got out, we went out to the sea coast and we lived on the water out there. I was very fortunate. So dad was a builder, but what was mom doing? Mom was an artist. Um, she not only drew, painted, uh, on her own accord, but she was also a, uh, a graphic artist and a teacher. And siblings? There are four siblings, two brothers, two sisters. I'm the neglected one in the middle. Okay. And what are they doing these days? Well, um, interestingly, they're all artisans. They're all in art teaching. Uh, one's a lawyer. Um, who's yet still in an artisan. And I can remember a long time ago when I was a little disappointed in an elementary school drawing that I made and I was looking for comfort and my father looked at it and he said, "John, you can't draw a stick. You need to move on." I was the only one that didn't get that gene. You went to the University of New Hampshire for business administration and a focus on hotel and travel administration. Uh, where did the interest come from there? And that's actually, that was a very deliberate, um, that was a deliberate, deliberate move. What I did was I had, uh, I had always wanted to be an architect, but my father was right. I couldn't draw a stick. Um, and I can remember vividly looking through a magazine and, uh, I just was, so I was just so impressed by some of the commercial hotels that were being built at the time. And, um, I said, well, if I can't design them, I'll run them. And that was my interest. That's where the interest from and hotels started. And interestingly enough, because I was so interested in the design and the construction of the, of these hotels, I always put my hand up first when it came to being responsible for project management and the hotel and building hotels. And I couldn't tell you how many hotels I've built or even in later years, when I got into senior housing building, countless senior housing. I just loved the, the, uh, the whole construction project, the design, the space planning, and you know, 30 years later, we're doing it here in downtown Waterbury. December, 2018, January, 2019, you move 400 associates to downtown Waterbury. You create a state of the art online education hub. Why? Yeah. Um, you know, uh, I think people are a little bit surprised when I say this. Um, it was not about economics. We feel we have a sense of, um, we have a real obligation to the town of Waterbury. This city has been good to Post University for 130 years. It sounds altruistic. And perhaps it is, but I felt a responsibility to take a stand. I felt a responsibility to be a great civic partner with the city of Waterbury. And I thought again, you know, to a certain extent, this, this is where we started, but my thinking is if we put four, five, 600 people downtown Waterbury, that has to have some impact socially, civically, economically. And that's really the reason we did it. We have an obligation to be a great civic partner. Obviously we can't be cavalier in the financial responsibilities and making certain this institution is making good sound financial decisions so it will be around for another 130 years. Uh, but it's, it's overwhelmingly driven by wanting to do something good for Waterbury. And I, I want to see this as the start of something great. And bring, uh, the vibrancy and the economic vitality to downtown Waterbury. The possibilities here are endless. So as we sit talking this morning, we're on the fourth floor of what used to be a bustling department store. Why choose this building? Yeah. Uh, this is the Howland Houghes building. It's an iconic building. If you walk by this building, you can't help but notice the architecture of the building. Maybe that's that architectural bug that I still have. But it's, um, it's a beautiful building, but also it has to work for our needs. And we did look at a number of buildings. Um, this one worked in terms of the concept of what we wanted to do and the layout. So the space planning has a lot to do with it. And the logistics of downtown have a lot to do with there're things in an urban environment that you have to consider versus a suburban environment. It fulfilled all of the criteria and it also, again, is, it's an iconic building and, uh, interesting Howland Hughes, which started in 1890, was the same year that Post University started in, in, uh, in 1890. So that there's an intersection, they're two iconic institutions in Waterbury. So you've been in a managerial role since you were a teen, early twenties. What did people see in you? What did you see in yourself at that time? Yeah, actually, that was a, that was an issue for most of my career. Um, I became a, uh, I became a vice president of a hotel company at 28 and I was president of the company by 30, which was a little bit unusual. Um, and I always remember, um, you know, when you're dealing with guys that in some instances at twice, twice your age and clearly respectful of their experience. Um, but I also had to have a lot of confidence, um, and a lot of take a lot of risk because I didn't have the experience, particularly that technical experience. So it taught me early on, uh, it's an expression we use even to this day, "As first seek to understand. And then be understood." Um, so it's important to listen, to learn, uh, but you still have to portray some confidence, uh, decision making skills. And somehow I was lucky enough to understand that at a very young age and along the way I have to say I had some great, great mentors, you know, too in particular that I just thought really shaped whatever skills I ended up with. So, so some of your formative professional years were spent with the Peabody Hotel Group? Yeah. That's a really, um, that's a very unique hotel company. They have, uh, so many of the hotels that you see out there today have, they're cookie cutters. Um, you know, it's almost a commodity it's, it's a very mature business. But, you know, 35 years ago, um, the Peabody Hotel Group, which was owned by Jack Bells and his family who were out of Memphis. They bought a, a, uh, really a rundown, a historic hotel in downtown Memphis. Uh, it was called the Peabody of Memphis and it was famous for its ducks in the lobby. And there's a whole story behind that, but, um, it was a magnificent, he restored it and it was just a magnificent hotel. It had that old world flavor, the building itself was museum quality. It was just a lovely hotel. And, uh, so we very selectively went out and continued to build that brand. Most of the hotels in the Peabody Hotel Group were not Peabody's, but they were franchised hotels. Um, I think at one point we might've had 32 hotels around the country. Different flags, but a handful, half dozen of the Peabodies and Orlando, Memphis and elsewhere. Not just any hotel, but the South Grand Hotel, as they call it. It really is terrific hotel. And still is. And still is. In the late nineties, you jump into senior living. That seems like a quantum leap. Tell me about that. Yeah, it was a, um, was a pretty significant, uh, change. Um, but you know, in some regards, what I've discovered is that, um, it's all, business is business. There are many of the same , um, disciplines, but there is clearly some nuances when you jump from one sector into another sector. Um, but at the end of the day, it's still business. And the leap for me was really, it was, I don't think senior housing is dramatically different than luxury hotels. And this senior housing model that we partnered with was, um, really focused on the, on luxury senior housing. And it's, you know, it's many of the same disciplines, whether it's accounting, finance, human resources, guest service, clearly there's a healthcare nuance to it. Um, and so working with nurses and doctors and so on and so forth, is clearly different than the hotel industry, but particularly as a partner and president of the organization, the disciplines are largely the same as they were in the hotel business as president. And that's the capital structure, the vision, the growth, the development, and so on and so forth. So it's not as big a shift as one might think. So just to calibrate the audience on, uh, what you led over at Benchmark. 44 communities across seven states, 4,200 residents, 3,500 employees, and over a billion dollars in assets. Um. Pretty profitable, pretty strong infrastructure. And then you move over to the education sector, uh, advanced college in West Palm Beach. So here were the instructions that apparently you were given. And I quote, "Either close it down, break it up, or make it a winner." That sounds like a pretty intriguing setup for a guy like you. Yeah, it was, uh, you know, one of the things about... I had slowly started to learn in my, in the early days of my career, the importance of first establishing a, a dynamic culture within the organization. This is especially true for a service oriented enterprise. And so at Benchmark, we were largely successful in growing that company from zero to 44 facilities, largely because of the culture of the organization. In fact, the shareholders would say, and my promise to them was that we focus on this. It will be a point of distinction. When the asset is sold and sure enough, we had a couple international, uh, buyers for the, uh, for the enterprise and it was a, they, in their terms, it was a trophy, uh, acquisition. It was lower risk, largely because of the alignment of 3,500 associates or whatever it was that knew their mission, knew their responsibilities, their contributions to the organization and so on and so forth. And so to me, that's the underpinning of all of our, any of the businesses that I've, I've been involved in. And then you head up the eastern sea board to Atlanta and JTC Education. Um, I think there was an interesting point that I read about your time there. Um, your focus on culture by design. Can you talk about that a bit? Yeah. So most companies, they, they talk about this word culture. And when you, when you use that word, most people's eyes glaze over because they don't really know what it means, it's this ethereal concept. Um, but the reality is every organization has a culture. Every organization, most organization organizations just let it happen. We try to instill a culture by design. It's very deliberate. We know where we want it to go. We, it's really nothing more when you use the word culture, it's really synonymous with the word behaviors. And so walking into that enterprise that has a, a culture, a deliberate culture, you know what the expectations are of that organization on day one. You are hired to it. You had conversations to it, and now you clearly have to grow into it. But unlike most companies where you start with an organization, it takes you 90 days to figure out where the men's room is. And you know, in the first six months, 12 months it's trial and error. You don't know exactly what's acceptable. What's not acceptable. Imagine walking in and you've, you know, exactly what the behaviors are, what the expectations are. And a lot of that has to do with the communication piece around how you work. So to me, it's nothing more than behaviors. It's very black and white to me. Uh, and it is the underpinnings of any successful organization. I've also heard something along those lines that maybe you even coined, called, "Explicit and employee cultures." That sounds amazing. And I think that's, that's what you're talking about. Um, here's a quote of a, someone about you."John is a very rare leader. He expertly and surgically maneuvers companies." What's the idea of surgical maneuvering. Is that a sibling to the culture by design that you're talking? Well, it, it, it, it is, um, that's one of the pieces of the puzzle. Um, there are, as I referenced earlier, there are many common disciplines. Um, and with each discipline you have to figure, at least I try to figure out you have this vision and how does each one of those disciplines very explicitly align with the vision. The devil is always in the details. Um, but we establish that vision and we are constantly holding people accountable, not in a negative way, but having conversations about around metrics, progress, lack of progress and lack of progress always happens. Uh, if there wasn't lack of progress, that vision isn't sort of grand enough. So that brings us up to the opportunity at Post University. How did that opportunity come about? Yeah, so I, uh, I, I got a call from a couple of trustees, uh, who I had known for quite a while. And they had asked me to just come by for a couple of days, give an initial thought to the business, not to run the business. They just wanted me to sort of,"what's your initial impression?" Um, and these guys are terrific. They're, I think the world of these folks. And so I said, "Of course I'll do that." And I stopped by for a couple of days and started chatting with, uh, some of the associates throughout the university. And after a couple of days, I called them back and I said, "I just, you know, it's an interesting series of conversations, but I need more time." And so. Two days turned into four days, which turned into two weeks. And this was in, um, this was in September, I believe of, uh, 2015. And by Thanksgiving, the week before Thanksgiving, one of the trustees said, "You ever think about doing this on a full time basis?" And I said, "No, I'm not interested." Um, I just never thought that. The running a university just was not part of the game plan. Um, but as I kept poking at the business and having conversations, I clearly understood the possibilities and it was not that dissimilar to experiences in my past where it's the right product or it's the right service. It, uh, a lot of it is the cultural piece, the execution piece. And the, again, getting those disciplines aligned. Um, and I thought there were great possibilities. So by Christmas, the trustees had said yet again, "Are you interested in doing this full time?" And I said, "Absolutely." And been here ever since. So what were the most intriguing components of what you saw in those first review, and then the subsequent months leading up to coming on board? Yeah. Well, as you get into the conversations with folks and you start looking at metrics, uh, you, you, you really get an understanding of how the university works. Um, and, and again, it's across all of the various disciplines. So if you started from the beginning, in my mind, there was a real opportunity to, to have an, a culture by design. And explicit behaviors. And so we started there and we literally took every associate of the university through a series of conversations, um, throughout the summer of '16. And they helped us. They all had authorship in creating our imagined future, which is, it's a discipline I like to take folks through not only to give them an opportunity to offer the vision of the enterprise. Um, they have a literal sense of authorship, ownership in the future. So I took them through that process. So we clearly laid out, collaboratively laid out our vision. We also laid out the behaviors of the organization. So those are the underpinnings and you don't really wave a flag and say,"Okay, you're now culturally endorsed." Right? It takes time. We're still going through that process. It's iterative. We'll continue to go through that process. Um, but that's where it started. And then you look at each of the other disciplines and you say,"Okay, Who are we marketing to? How are we marketing? What message? Who is our customer?" The positioning, all of that. Um, so it's really been a, a couple of years of nothing short of chaos. I promised everybody chaos and I delivered on it, but it's been interesting. And I couldn't be, I honestly couldn't be more proud of the associates of Post University. About how their behaviors have changed, how they've embraced change and the progress they've made throughout the university. Most importantly, the progress they've made with respect to the student experience. It's been nothing short of amazing. It's one of the most significant transformations in my career, and I've seen a lot of them, but this one has really been something special. So you're a numbers guy. You're a metrics guy. What are some of the key metrics? Now that you've quote unquote,"transformed the university." What are you seeing in terms of the hard data and the facts behind the growth of Post? Yeah. So the efforts of a lot of people are starting to really come to fruition. So we're seeing a very significant increase in our enrollment and enrollment really comes in two forms and we've sort of bifurcated. We bifurcate that conversation all the time. There are existing students and our mission is to make certain that we retain those students. They once had a dream. Our mantra, our mantra here is,"We're changing people's lives." They have a dream. We personalize the interaction to make certain that we are tailoring a course of study for that individual. And so it's, that's an important piece in seeing the retention of our existence, existing students increase. That has increased dramatically. The other side of enrollment is new students. And again, given the shift in how we work, the student experience, prospective student experience, where we're, where we're marketing to those students, um, has had a profound impact on, we always say it's a well-intended student. Um, it's a better intended student and we're seeing that new student growth again, along with the retention piece, uh, it's pretty significant in terms of the growth of the university. The nice part about it is, you know, with each year, with each term within the year, we're seeing every term improving over the last term. We're seeing every semester on the main campus improving over that semester of the year before. So we're seeing it on both sides. Um, you know, which creates certain challenges in the main campus, because now we have to kind of look at, we're reaching the point where we're out of res halls. And so, you know, that creates some good challenges. So enrollment is, is, is growing nicely. Um, and then there's, you know, we also look at, uh, obviously the quality of, uh, the courses and our assessment process to make certain that the students, A, are learning what we said they would learn in their field of study. So we're, it's kind of a rising tide where we're seeing the economics improve or seeing the metrics, the key metrics for the student improve. And we're, we're seeing those assessment, uh, metrics, uh, improve as well. So it's, it's really going in the right direction. So let me give you a quick rundown of some notable Post alum. Alumni. Uh, there's a former Harlem Globe Trotter. There's a former Miss Connecticut. There's a member of the Connecticut House of Representatives. And there's the president of Paraguay. That's a pretty broad spectrum of people contributing to the world. What do you hope the Post alumni of the future will be able to do in this world? Change the world, change the world. You know there's an expression. Um, I'm gonna screw this up."You either create change or change will create you." Right? Um, I think in my personal life, I've not asked, but I've had conversations with my children that if upon graduation, before they, their life takes over that they spend a year or so doing service for others. And so they've that resonated with them. And they've, one's been in Columbia. One is, uh, uh, right now is unfortunately we have some very difficult areas of the United States. Southeast Atlanta is a good example. Um, trying to teach English. Uh, one is in, um, New Mexico trying to help the less fortunate, um, with getting the proper documentation to get to this country or teaching on an Indian reservation. Whatever it might be, I hope that every post student is successful in their careers. And as that career progresses, that they turn around and look at the next guy in line and help that next person in line. It's great to look forward. But along the way, I hope everybody has a little bit of a contribution to those who are less fortunate. Let me ask you about your vision of Post, as it relates to Waterbury. Is there some philosophical plan to make Post to Waterbury the backbone of Waterbury as, say, a Yale is to New Haven. The direct answer is yes, but there's, there are a lot of caveats to that. The practical reality is as the university continues to grow, I can see a day when there is a campus, a downtown Waterbury campus. Um, that might include some classrooms, uh, perhaps moving graduate schools down here. Uh, it might include some re uh, res halls. Um, there is a need for more space. And so thinking about that, organizing that in a, you know, in a visionary way is the process that we're in right now. But I can definitely see a time when there will be a bigger presence for Post, but we have to again, get, get our bearings here first, make sure it all works right. And, uh, and I will say, to date, the city of Waterbury has been phenomenal. Post University is not going to transform Waterbury in and of itself. I think this is a very good step. We're going to continue to look at the options to, to grow in this immediate area. Um, but I also hope it is the catalyst that spurs a lot of other exciting, uh, investment opportunities downtown. You've been leading Post since 2016. What's your take on Waterbury now versus then? Um, I'm not sure. I'm not sure there's been a dramatic, dramatic shift in thinking about Waterbury. You know, obviously I've become a lot more involved with the city and, um, and much more aware of what the possibilities are in this city. And I do think the possibilities are endless. Um, we just got to get a number of those larger organizations and the smaller companies, that support it, uh, down here in downtown Waterbury. I think it is a, to me, I look at Waterbury and I, I love the diversity of Waterbury. I love the diversity in the workforce. Um, it's culturally enriched. Um, you know between the Palace Theater, Mattatuck, the beautiful churches, I could go on. There's a couple great universities in this town. So there's a lot going on in this town that we just have to leverage. And I clearly have now have come to understand those, those possibilities. So what would you tell a perspective investor? A prospective company of any size, um, who's looking at the Waterbury region. What's the pitch? When you look at the support that you'll get from the city, the support that came from the state. This wouldn't have happened if the developers didn't get the support that they needed, um, this was a very expensive, it's a very old building. And it was a, it was a very expensive proposition. Um, but it had to be done. And the state realized that, the city realized that, that it wasn't going to be done on the economics of a purely private investment. And I think it stands the, the high probability that it's gonna pay off in spades. So I would say that there's, there's great opportunities for conversations with both the state and the city. The mayor clearly knows he understands his vision and he's open for very creative conversations, which is always very helpful to any, any developer coming into town. Um, I think the infrastructure is terrific at the labor force. Again, I love the diversity, the culture. There are a lot of interesting things about Waterbury that I think anybody taking a look at, uh, at this town would be really interested in. We're going to end with some fun things. So this is a speed round. You get to pick one or the other. Dunkin or Starbucks? Dunkin. Red Sox or Yankees? Do we even have to go there? Night owl or early riser? Early riser. Glass half full or glass completely full? Completely full. Soup or salad? I like them both. That's a tough one. I'm going to go with soup. Dogs or cats? Dogs. Coffee or cappuccino? Coffee. Gluten-free or all gluten? All gluten. Spring or fall? Fall. Rock and roll or pop? Pop. Golf or tennis? Golf. More appetizers or more dessert? More appetizers. Avocado or kale? I'm going to pass.